This blog is maintained for the sole purpose of allowing the people of Peru and those interested in the cities of the Illinois Valley to express their views.
“It doesn’t take a majority to win, just a tireless minority that will keep starting brush fires in the mind and hearts of their fellow men.” Samuel Adams
We need to go to a county based school board system. One school board per county. Over time, the number of school buildings will be reduced. For example; one high school in the new consolidated City of LaSalle-Peru, one high school in Ottawa, one high school in Mendota. Same goes for grade schools. Done correctly, one building per concentration area would work. Then we start cutting overhead. One one school board. One superintendent of schools, one principal per building, one director of education for grade 9-12, one for K-5, one for 5-8. Various other "office" functions would be consolidated into one location. Other savings would be- One transportation contract One set of food contracts One teachers union contract One services union contract One buyer that would source all the supplies.
The government should be in no way, shape, or form be educating our children. This is one of the governments largest monopolies, and over the years it's getting worse. The constant is always the same: children are saying they are being taught things they will never use, and with college it only gets worse.
11:33- exactly 3. To your point though. We can reduce K-5 to 3 and 5-8 to 3 each for the entire county. Shut all the small schools down! Send everyone to either L-P, Ottawa, or Mendota. We don't need all of these small schools!
Always good to know that the next generation of our best hope for the city political future holds extremist positions on education, turning his back on the system of public education that has been the cornerstone of our nation for literally decades, going back to home schooling, private education, and never forget the great tradition of tolerance and progress, strict religious education.
Hold firm to the libertarian positions and ignore reality, political compromise, the vast majority, and the fact that You will always be a minority voice. Be proud, and lose over and over and over.
When 1 person thinks your right and 19 think your nuts, it is not proof. But it is a call for self examination.
5:24. You want reality? Most kids these days are graduating with worthless liberal arts degrees, they are $40,000+ in debt and they can't even find a job, and to top it off the loans they've acquired can't even be dismissed in bankruptcy. I would like to see a "vast majority" who believes the government provides quality education. I've come to understand, as most people today, that when the government tries to "reform" something (education, healthcare, financial sector), means they didn't get it right the first 50 times they reformed it, they aren't going to get it right this time.
Sadly your view of reality is not real. Which college graduates do you know? Most I know have a far better paying job than those without a college degree. Google the statistics. Sure most right out of school have debt. That is a reality of higher education costs.
Who do you think graduates the most "liberal arts" degrees? Private schools. Not public. Which college graduates have the most debt? Private school graduates. Not public. Look it up before you talk about "reality".
The funny thing is none of this has anything to do with K-12 education. If you get past the manipulated lies and rhetoric about K-12 education you would actually find statistics that are compelling in some other ways.
For decades we have been told that public education is destroying our country. Yet we are one of the only countries that educates ALL children. The day to compare us to India, China and similar countries is the day those countries start educating all of their kids.
As for the "vast majority", here is another way to ask the question. When a majority of people are polled about the quality of education in general, they tend to be more negative. But when you ask them about the quality of education in their own local school system, they tend to rate it pretty high.
Why do you think that is? Check the facts and let's stick to those. Please don't be egged on by the "atta boys" who are clueless and think for yourself. No propaganda and no talking points. Just look up the facts on these things.
As for the rest of you that think a bigger school system is a more cost effective one, I would suggest you talk to Rockford, Peoria and some of the other larger ones first. See if they like their taxes and system better. Consolidation almost never saves money. Don't take away local control and each school district reorganization requires an analysis of the facts.
Think people. Stop being sheep and making broad, general statements. Back up your story with facts and maybe someday someone will actually pay attention to something on here.
I think Justin just shoots himself in the foot politically when he spouts opinion without strongly supporting it with fact. It is good that a politician has beliefs and conviction, but one of the knocks of youth is that it sees in very black and white terms. Many of us knew it all when younger and have found out how very much we don't know as we grew older.
It is easy to say Government is evil, ruins everything, and cannot provide education. But the fundamental reason it IS the job of the government is because the majority has deemed education a right. A basic fundamental right, and as such must be presented as fairly and equitably as is humanly possible.
The reason it MUST be public is clearly defined through history. From the years when women and slaves were not allowed education, and the poor were sent to work as children, with no education mandate, and religious institutions have promoted educational bigotry and intolerance- Government slowly began to interfere, and reform... Really sticking their nose into it. Darn government.
It has been funded, unfortunately , by relying on a system of taxing property and have schools that are good where people are rich and bad where people are poor. Feel free to point out the few exceptions and ignore the rule if it defends your position that the free market should provide education. You can always find Libertarians or other fringe groups to support you. But you will win no elections, make no difference, and effect no real change.
You'll get lots of blog press though. Sweet. Some leader.
9:53. For one, being my age, I know plenty of college graduates, this weekend I sat in with over a dozen of them and they all preach the same story. Yes they have substantial debt from private schools, but those just so happen to be government subsidized loans, google the statistics, the numbers stand at over 1 trillion dollars and counting. For your information this has to do with k-12, specifically high school. All of them questioned why most of the gen ed classes and hands on training couldn't be done in high school. But go ahead, say I'm not the one living in reality, and continue to be manipulated by politicians claiming they have yet another government based solution to our problems, or, do what I do, go and actually speak to people who are going out in the real world (or who recently have), and ask them how well our education system prepared them.
I have to laugh at 953. "Look up facts, look up facts" yet every where you look people talk of our deteriorating school system. Those are the facts, I don't need a government statistic to paint a pretty picture. My nephew just graduated, he was dumbfounded at how poorly his K-12 "prepared" him for the real world, let alone college. Wake up, people. It isn't about our kids getting taught. It's about pensions and teachers unions, and it's so damn expensive and costs keep going up. Don't worry. Politicians know what's best for our children. Let's keep up the same pattern.
Thankfully we have had a run of unbelievably mild winters. Throw one or two years in a row of good old Illinois cold, snow and sleet into the equation and think of your child or grandchild being stranded on a highway or in a school for two or three days. There are a lot of negatives to a central H.S. as well as positives. Also shutting a school down for the balance of a day is not as simple and easy as just saying take everyone home. In a area which LaSalle-Peru will not combine as one city I am sure you would find site location to be the stopping aspect of a county high school.
Justin, obviously you did not attend college. And upset about those who did. Any survey will tell you that those who graduate from college do receive better paying jobs. Your thoughts about governement education and moving all to the private sector is a total reversal of the points you make. The cost of private education will be unattainable for those who parents are underemployed, many without college degrees. Those who teach in the private sector will be educated by the public sector.
education is NOT a right. Nowhere is that in our constitution. The situation justin has described is NOT a political one, get that through your heads, it's a mathematical one. But I suppose him signing his name makes him a minority, not that a group of anonymous bloggers is a minority...
So it is the government's fault that your friends applied for and accessed the government subsidized loans for their private school educations and now they can't get a job? Is that the logic we are following here? K-12 public schools don't cause your friends to get useless college degrees, borrow large amounts of money to go to wonderful private schools, and then sit around and bitch because they can't get a job.
Don't you tell me to talk to one of those young people. I AM one of those young people. I'm not even 30 and all of my friends and I are working. Banking, education, real estate and engineering to name a few. I got a fantastic education in Peru and LP and I am very thankful for the teachers who impacted my life. It wasn't about unions or pensions or salaries. These are fantastic people who prepared me for the next stage of life and helped teach me to be responsible, to think for myself and that there was nothing I couldn't do if I worked hard.
Never until the recent attempted hijacking of schools by fringe groups has it been the jobs of K-12 schools to provide "job training." Schools should teach you to think critically and question. Schools should provide fine arts and a range of curricular opportunities like mine did.
Sorry you and your friends didn't make the best of yours. Just keep going with your "it's the government's fault" mentality and as 10:42 correctly points out, it will get you far in life. Good luck with that.
Government is not perfect. Schools are not perfect. The private sector is not perfect but we will just pretend the big banks had nothing to do with the financial crisis. It was the government's fault. The one thing I know is NO one has a more challenging job than educators dealing with the general public and students and families that are in crisis. That is the real epidemic.
I never pay attention to blogs like this but I heard there was a discussion about the schools. I would have given anything to attend Parkside and I wish our schools the best in moving forward and I hope my kids get to be a part of it someday.
That's funny 11:52. What deteriorating school system? What is deteriorating? Have you visited one lately? Talked to anyone? Some school districts are probably getting better some are probably getting worse at any given moment. But where is the local crisis?
I have children, nieces and nephews who are performing very well and aren't saying what you are hearing. Quite the opposite in fact.
But your nephew said it so it must be true. You are right. Screw facts.
9:44 Did you take reading comprehension in school because you have obviously missed the point. As for 9:31, I do have higher education, I don't know why you assume I don't, but it's not like a higher education guarantees success in this country. The point is government makes things artificially expensive while maintaining or decreasing quality. You don't need an advanced education to figure this stuff out. Please, use your advanced education to look into the economics of things before you attempt to insult me.
It doesn't guarantee success, but it helps! The governemnt helps promote expenses by the easy method of student loans. The decreasing quality is debatable. Is higher education == college. In today's world higher education includes advance degree. Experience is the major reason potential employers employ individuals. College points out that you are teachable, and some communication skills. Your solution to eliminate public education is a tad elitist. Who would be able to afford private education without student loans. The answer is those who have the money. Yes, another two class system.
I didn't insult you. I picked apart your argument with facts and reasonably intelligent points, none of which you countered. Don't take it personally.
You don't get to argue with me with "the point is government makes things artificially expensive while maintaining or decreasing quality" without something to back it up. Your ten percent of blogger backers will make you feel good about yourself while you get your ass handed to you in another election.
I have figured "this stuff" out and I will await your brilliant response to anything I said. You like putting your name on goofy concepts which revolve around all government basically being bad or artificially expensive, which is an economic falsehood as well. Does government drive up some costs? Of course. We live in a country of rules and laws and regulations. I am a conservative and I think the government over reaches at times. It's just that the "all government is bad" whackos take away from the concept of good conservationism and any reasonable conversation about the role of government.
Don't drive on our roads, go to our schools, eat the food that passed the health department inspection, be protected by our military, have police and fire protection for your home, a sewer that works every day, water the comes out of your faucet, or a library with books or whatever else. You can live in a country where all government is bad. I'll live in the USA, where only some of the government is bad.
I was referencing all of your young friends you you mentioned who don't have jobs, so my apologies if you are an educated and well-employed young man. From your statement I am also assuming you got a private school education that was far to superior to the pitiful public ones your friends obviously received.
Here is what you clearly don't understand. There are no guarantees for anyone. A college education is a choice a person makes. It is their decision which school to attend and how to ultimately pay for it. I did public school through college, including Peru, LP, IVCC and a state university. Worked my butt off and got through college with little debt and long since paid off. I didn't whine around and make excuses. I sucked it up and did it and my "government, public education" is serving me very well, just as it does for the vast majority of American citizens who take personal responsibility for that education.
Good luck to you buddy. If you want to continue an argument of extremism vs good decent common sense I'm here waiting for you.
9:39 you are a minority if you think a few bloggers represent any significant part of the population.
I agree it was not part of the Constitution, but then neither were free black people or the right to vote for women. This does not mean that our Founding Fathers did not believe in public education EVEN back then. Crazy big government founding fathers...
In 1785, John Adams wrote, "The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves."
Justin is 100% correct regarding college. I have two kids that are college graduates, one has a liberal arts degree and the other one does not. They both graduated from a illinois university. Have been out of college for three years. Both of them had to go to the suburbs/Chicago for jobs. My child with the liberal arts degree works in social services and make approximately $14.00 per hour. My other child works in marketing/ accounting and makes $30,000 plus commission. Both are in college debt to the tune of about $40,000 each. My child who makes about $14.00 a hour would like to get a masters degree, in which would increase salary. Can't afford more debt to obtain a masters. Both my children are actually hard workers and a little depressed over their debt because both are barely making it financially and it will take 15-20 years to pay off their college debt. They were raised by hard working parents, who were themselves barely making it. No financial aid available. Liberal art degrees are worthless I hate to say. This has been all over the news the last Couple of years.
I have two step-children both with liberal arts dregrees. Worthless. To be brutally honest, both received athletic scholarships which paid for most of college. Both went to college for the extended playing of a sport they liked in HS. Both could have really cared less about getting more of a dregrees then liberal arts degree. They're easy to obtain. A 8th grade C student could get one. Colleges put too much emphasis on athletic scholarships and don't care about the education. Look at alot of college basketball, and football players, a large percentage can't even speak proper English.
12:44. You are obviously another individual with difficult reading comprehension skills. I never said all government is bad, this is yet another fallacy that you have thought up. Government needs to exist to protect life, liberty, and private property. I also never said my friends didn't have jobs, I'm curious where you got that from as well. You make it sound like we would have never advanced as species if government wasn't around to hold our hand. Here is another thing to think of; if I own a college, and I know I can teach you for $5,000, but I know the government will back you for $10,000, what do you think will happen to the cost of your education? You see, if there were no subsidies colleges would be forced to cut costs.
Government exists for far more than that. You list these most basic three reasons for any government to exist, but of course in the good ol' USA the purpose of the government in the preamble is to form a more perfect union; to establish justice; to insure domestic tranquility; to provide for the common defense; to promote the general welfare; and to secure the blessings of liberty.
They should do away with college sports. Students who are there for the right reasons are supporting the colleges sports programs with high tuition costs.
I am sorry a couple of you have kids with liberal arts degrees. That tells me your kids made a bad choice but this is not the government's fault.
There is a distinct and direct correlation between education attainment (measured by college degrees) and household income. It is not even disputed in research. It's just common sense.
Those of you who had kids make poor choices for majors hang in there. Over time it will probably be better in the long run. But I did not allow my kids to choose a major that would not have a practical use.
Justin if you can own a college and you can teach a kids for $5,000 a year, I would like to see that business plan.
Yes our state government "subsidizes" education just like all states do. That has worked very well for our country. Let's put all of the facts out there about the truth regarding taxes and college costs. The only catch is no political slant, just facts. Then let's take a poll and ask the average citizen if we should take the U of I and ISU and NIU and the others private. That will be a good one.
Again, if you ever want to make the slightest difference politically in the world, stop with this kind of stupidity. You will get cheered on by 7 people, but the rest of the world will answer you with the sound of crickets.
We have operated for eons with a reasonable balance between good government and a healthy private sector and both are dependent on the other. Even god business people (I consider myself one) who believe that government should "get out of the way" don't want it to go away. They want less regulations and reasonable taxes, but we need good government as well. and that includes a good education system.
Let's move on and work together to tackle the real problems in the world and stop with the hard core party line talking points.
Before this debate goes on and on about a college degree what is the foremost reason for obtaining one? Years ago I was told it was to learn about the many facets of life, the arts and humanities etc. and the enjoyment of them. What do you believe if the prime reason of a collee education?
The first comment of this topic is interesting. Each area could have a independent location but all other cost saving factors could be processed under one umbrella resulting in the savings of big bucks. Today because of computers many business practices are available that are not looked into.
At tonights city council meeting there is supposed to be a new member appointed to the Design and Review Board. Has this appointment ever been published to find if anyone else was interested? How many members are supposed to be on this board? How many members are on it and who is the new nominee replacing? There is also a Downtown Redevelopment Board? Who is the present Chairman of this board and when was its last meeting?
2:57. I was using the $5,000 ARBITRARY number for simplicities sake, I thought you could use it. You seem to have a very difficult time with reading comprehension; I never said I wanted to make a difference politically, in any case, the arguments I present aren't political, they are based from mathematics and economics. The government subsidies are a huge drawback, I don't see how you could support them. You see, in a free market economy, if you are adding value, then you succeed, if you are not, then you fail (which is why I strongly disagreed with the bank bailout). When you have subsidization, nobody knows if what is provided is helping or hindering since the option of failing has been taken off the table. For your information, I have been "cheered on" by more than 7 people, I make my stand public and sign my name to where you are still "anonymous." As for your last paragraph, as I emphasized before, I don't want government to go away, we need it, you should re read my post at 2:30. I will leave with a question for you, and try not to get distracted; what has the government intervened in that brought up quality while decreasing cost?
Justin - that is just like the farm bill that provides incetives to plant corn in the bottoms where it is almost guaranteed to fail. And the subsidized flood insurance that pays for people to rebuild multiple times in flood prone areas. In both cases, if the market where to prevail and people where allowed to fail, then we we would be better for it. Not meaning any harm to the people of Utica and Marcelles - but they should not be getting any "FEMA" money for the flooding this year. Peru should have never gotten "IKE" Grants for, of all things, a hurrican from years ago. Etc, etc, etc. Waste, waste, waste.
9:39 Education, to the VAST majority , has become a right AND a responsibility. Slowly, the government put more and more laws, subsidies and effort into trying to guarantee all had an equal opportunity for education and to better themselves.
That very concept flies in the face of pure competitive capitalistic ideas, where we allow failure so we can have success. There are safety nets because the wild ravages of pure free market forces have HISTORY behind them. It really IS the governments job to monitor and try to guarantee equality and basic rights for all. Did your parents put the food out on the table and watch the weak ones die while the strong got stronger? Why don't you pure free market thinkers leave survival of the fittest to the evolutionary biologists?
Education has been considered one of the basics because it is the great equalizer, allowing those with limited means but desire, smarts and will the ability to rise up into the upper classes. It is also the bastion of tolerance and innovation.
It is rationed and religious/ facist in almost every dictatorship in History. If you detest the liberals, the elitists with liberal arts educations, you share that trait with almost every mass murdering ruler in History.
There are many problems with education, and there are few simple answers, for the very subjects needing to be taught to supply competing workers have shifted and become more complex. There is less money going per student than at any time since WWII, and a conservative mandate of No Child left behind that should have been titled, get good test scores or we take away your funding.
Is it "no child left behind" or "no child left a dime?" The socialist govt needs to get out of the education system and propping up useless degrees and failing colleges. When the next recession hits (no doubtedly caused by our 17+ trillion in debt) I can guarantee, just like last recession, college kids will be in the dust
I think there would be more jobs if the baby boomers where forced to retire at 65 (unless they are self employed). These people should not be holding onto jobs that younger people need.
Thankfully this blog post is over. What starts out as a discussion about education funding ends up with words about our "socialist government" needing to get out of the education system.
So much for any chance at an intellectual discussion when the crazies take over. Unbelievable.
Yes 12:29. Maybe you should tune into more intelligent things, like FaceBook. You have also added nothing to intelligently counter anything anyone said here.
speaking of education , here is a link that came out today that will put things in perspective! http://fountainheadnation.org/school-revolution/ I'd like to hear some points that argue its validity
10:32 There were very few points made in the article. To those who already view govt funded and mandated education as some evil socialists plot, it is fodder. It fails to mention WHY the federal government stepped in to try and equalize educational opportunity across the entire country. It fails to explain that no child left behind was a conservative brainchild to try and punish districts by withholding dollars. It does not inflation adjust the per student figure, a figure in error btw, but most importantly doe NOT chart the wild disparity in class size and per student funding all across the country, the WORST such distribution of ANY industrialized nation.
The low income areas and scores vs the high income areas good scores has been the ONE constant over then big picture analysis for many decades. Exceptions and religious schools are presented as the rule by every whack job school revolutionary out there. They are always thinly veiled attempts to go back to the let us folk educate our kids and keep the govt out. Lets hear you say WHY the govt got in it in the first place.
Taking away your safety nets that you think makes us all equal (which by the way is stated in the constitution and by every major religion), should really step back away from public education.
Stop focusing so hard at making all the schools need to meet some arbitrary standard and look closely at why the funding disparity is so wide across our allegedly socialist nation. If any God given right called for a more equitable opportunity for every child, it should be education.
It sounds like your would be in favor of Common Core also. Someone just mentioned this to me a few days ago and I have not had much time to read up on it. Sounds like more government control.
I wonder how you got the sound of what I would favor out of my blog. I am much more in favor of facing the core inequities in funding and class sizes. The roots of keeping rich kids in nice schools and poor kids in bad schools, as well as segregating based on color or academic score , run very deep.
Many of the folks who just want to go back to the good old days went to school when there was a much larger middle class, which has the effect of evening neighborhoods and property values in an area. But the phenomenon of the vanishing middle class and wealth concentration ( which magically seems to be happening in the horrible socialist liberal country Ron Paul decries) Is having a polarizing effect.
Common Core is more a measurement tool, with far reaching teeth. To make all schools have kids meet basic standards at each grade level in core subjects like math reading science. The standards based reports are more like pass fail, although you can still level using traditional percentage grades. Think of it as D or better I guess.
I am not a big fan of it, nor am I a fan of no child left behind. I am a fan of curriculum development specialists, computer based standardized curriculum, better teacher wages and working conditions, uniform school funding, local school board choices in curriculum to meet common core standards. I also support a voucher system for private schools that accept a minimum 30 per cent low income scholarship students using the local public school tuition rates.
I am not a fan of excessive sports spending during academic crisis. I support zero tolerance for guns in or around schools.
There you go. Now you don't have to guess what I sound like I would favor on some issues. And no I am not a teacher, nor administrator.
If you want to improve the test scores in our local area High Schools, start by charting the vanishing middle class right here over the past twenty years. Look at the class sizes in the feeder elementary schools and their test scores. Look at the tax bases , average income levels, and spending per student. Measure how many elementary kids were exposed to parents who smoke (yes it's a real indicator). You feed poorly equipped 8th graders into overcrowded, underfunded, BD filled and sports centered High Schools, don't expect ACT scores through the roof.
Then , of course point out the exceptions and say see, this school did just fine with a ball of yarn and some good dedicated teachers... And they didn't need any government intervention. That gets you a free Ron Paul sticker.
I am with Justin and many who say the govt is doing it wrong, but I believe it is because the politicians are just dancing around the fundamental funding issues. Standards are easy to promulgate. Funding is a real b*tch.
9:38 PM Thank you for your excellent well thought out post which I can assure you I will spend some time going back over it again and again but not tonight.
The problem is generally politicians that do the dancing don't know what they are dancing about but sure know how to dance. They all spend their time seeking re election and don't spend enough time studying the issues and how to solve them.
806; the government got in because they want to equalize children, rather than treat them as equal people. It's obvious that some students are better than others at some things, but our education system would rather bring everyone to an equal level rather than let the brightest students flower in their field. How does it make any sense that instead of taking four years of high school, you can drop out and within a week have your GED? I'll leave with another interesting fact: according to the department of education, education spending has increased by roughly 600% since the 1980's, yet when you look at the average SAT scores, they have essentially been flat. WHERE IS OUR MONEY GOING BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOING TO THE CHILDREN!!
47 comments:
We need to go to a county based school board system. One school board per county. Over time, the number of school buildings will be reduced. For example; one high school in the new consolidated City of LaSalle-Peru, one high school in Ottawa, one high school in Mendota. Same goes for grade schools. Done correctly, one building per concentration area would work.
Then we start cutting overhead. One one school board. One superintendent of schools, one principal per building, one director of education for grade 9-12, one for K-5, one for 5-8. Various other "office" functions would be consolidated into one location.
Other savings would be-
One transportation contract
One set of food contracts
One teachers union contract
One services union contract
One buyer that would source all the supplies.
The government should be in no way, shape, or form be educating our children. This is one of the governments largest monopolies, and over the years it's getting worse. The constant is always the same: children are saying they are being taught things they will never use, and with college it only gets worse.
Anon 8:08
How many public high schools by your count are presently in L-P, Ottawa, Mendota?
11:33- exactly 3. To your point though. We can reduce K-5 to 3 and 5-8 to 3 each for the entire county. Shut all the small schools down! Send everyone to either L-P, Ottawa, or Mendota. We don't need all of these small schools!
Always good to know that the next generation of our best hope for the city political future holds extremist positions on education, turning his back on the system of public education that has been the cornerstone of our nation for literally decades, going back to home schooling, private education, and never forget the great tradition of tolerance and progress, strict religious education.
Hold firm to the libertarian positions and ignore reality, political compromise, the vast majority, and the fact that You will always be a minority voice. Be proud, and lose over and over and over.
When 1 person thinks your right and 19 think your nuts, it is not proof. But it is a call for self examination.
5:24. You want reality? Most kids these days are graduating with worthless liberal arts degrees, they are $40,000+ in debt and they can't even find a job, and to top it off the loans they've acquired can't even be dismissed in bankruptcy. I would like to see a "vast majority" who believes the government provides quality education. I've come to understand, as most people today, that when the government tries to "reform" something (education, healthcare, financial sector), means they didn't get it right the first 50 times they reformed it, they aren't going to get it right this time.
Atta boy loger! About time someone figured it out. They say a stupid country is a country easily managed.
Justin,
Sadly your view of reality is not real. Which college graduates do you know? Most I know have a far better paying job than those without a college degree. Google the statistics. Sure most right out of school have debt. That is a reality of higher education costs.
Who do you think graduates the most "liberal arts" degrees? Private schools. Not public. Which college graduates have the most debt? Private school graduates. Not public. Look it up before you talk about "reality".
The funny thing is none of this has anything to do with K-12 education. If you get past the manipulated lies and rhetoric about K-12 education you would actually find statistics that are compelling in some other ways.
For decades we have been told that public education is destroying our country. Yet we are one of the only countries that educates ALL children. The day to compare us to India, China and similar countries is the day those countries start educating all of their kids.
As for the "vast majority", here is another way to ask the question. When a majority of people are polled about the quality of education in general, they tend to be more negative. But when you ask them about the quality of education in their own local school system, they tend to rate it pretty high.
Why do you think that is? Check the facts and let's stick to those. Please don't be egged on by the "atta boys" who are clueless and think for yourself. No propaganda and no talking points. Just look up the facts on these things.
As for the rest of you that think a bigger school system is a more cost effective one, I would suggest you talk to Rockford, Peoria and some of the other larger ones first. See if they like their taxes and system better. Consolidation almost never saves money. Don't take away local control and each school district reorganization requires an analysis of the facts.
Think people. Stop being sheep and making broad, general statements. Back up your story with facts and maybe someday someone will actually pay attention to something on here.
9:53 Bravo
I think Justin just shoots himself in the foot politically when he spouts opinion without strongly supporting it with fact. It is good that a politician has beliefs and conviction, but one of the knocks of youth is that it sees in very black and white terms. Many of us knew it all when younger and have found out how very much we don't know as we grew older.
It is easy to say Government is evil, ruins everything, and cannot provide education. But the fundamental reason it IS the job of the government is because the majority has deemed education a right. A basic fundamental right, and as such must be presented as fairly and equitably as is humanly possible.
The reason it MUST be public is clearly defined through history. From the years when women and slaves were not allowed education, and the poor were sent to work as children, with no education mandate, and religious institutions have promoted educational bigotry and intolerance- Government slowly began to interfere, and reform... Really sticking their nose into it. Darn government.
It has been funded, unfortunately , by relying on a system of taxing property and have schools that are good where people are rich and bad where people are poor. Feel free to point out the few exceptions and ignore the rule if it defends your position that the free market should provide education. You can always find Libertarians or other fringe groups to support you. But you will win no elections, make no difference, and effect no real change.
You'll get lots of blog press though. Sweet. Some leader.
9:53. For one, being my age, I know plenty of college graduates, this weekend I sat in with over a dozen of them and they all preach the same story. Yes they have substantial debt from private schools, but those just so happen to be government subsidized loans, google the statistics, the numbers stand at over 1 trillion dollars and counting. For your information this has to do with k-12, specifically high school. All of them questioned why most of the gen ed classes and hands on training couldn't be done in high school. But go ahead, say I'm not the one living in reality, and continue to be manipulated by politicians claiming they have yet another government based solution to our problems, or, do what I do, go and actually speak to people who are going out in the real world (or who recently have), and ask them how well our education system prepared them.
I have to laugh at 953. "Look up facts, look up facts" yet every where you look people talk of our deteriorating school system. Those are the facts, I don't need a government statistic to paint a pretty picture. My nephew just graduated, he was dumbfounded at how poorly his K-12 "prepared" him for the real world, let alone college. Wake up, people. It isn't about our kids getting taught. It's about pensions and teachers unions, and it's so damn expensive and costs keep going up. Don't worry. Politicians know what's best for our children. Let's keep up the same pattern.
Thankfully we have had a run of unbelievably mild winters. Throw one or two years in a row of good old Illinois cold, snow and sleet into the equation and think of your child or grandchild being stranded on a highway or in a school for two or three days. There are a lot of negatives to a central H.S. as well as positives.
Also shutting a school down for the balance of a day is not as simple and easy as just saying take everyone home.
In a area which LaSalle-Peru will not combine as one city I am sure you would find site location to be the stopping aspect of a county high school.
Justin, obviously you did not attend college. And upset about those who did. Any survey will tell you that those who graduate from college do receive better paying jobs. Your thoughts about governement education and moving all to the private sector is a total reversal of the points you make. The cost of private education will be unattainable for those who parents are underemployed, many without college degrees. Those who teach in the private sector will be educated by the public sector.
education is NOT a right. Nowhere is that in our constitution. The situation justin has described is NOT a political one, get that through your heads, it's a mathematical one. But I suppose him signing his name makes him a minority, not that a group of anonymous bloggers is a minority...
Justin,
So it is the government's fault that your friends applied for and accessed the government subsidized loans for their private school educations and now they can't get a job? Is that the logic we are following here? K-12 public schools don't cause your friends to get useless college degrees, borrow large amounts of money to go to wonderful private schools, and then sit around and bitch because they can't get a job.
Don't you tell me to talk to one of those young people. I AM one of those young people. I'm not even 30 and all of my friends and I are working. Banking, education, real estate and engineering to name a few. I got a fantastic education in Peru and LP and I am very thankful for the teachers who impacted my life. It wasn't about unions or pensions or salaries. These are fantastic people who prepared me for the next stage of life and helped teach me to be responsible, to think for myself and that there was nothing I couldn't do if I worked hard.
Never until the recent attempted hijacking of schools by fringe groups has it been the jobs of K-12 schools to provide "job training." Schools should teach you to think critically and question. Schools should provide fine arts and a range of curricular opportunities like mine did.
Sorry you and your friends didn't make the best of yours. Just keep going with your "it's the government's fault" mentality and as 10:42 correctly points out, it will get you far in life. Good luck with that.
Government is not perfect. Schools are not perfect. The private sector is not perfect but we will just pretend the big banks had nothing to do with the financial crisis. It was the government's fault. The one thing I know is NO one has a more challenging job than educators dealing with the general public and students and families that are in crisis. That is the real epidemic.
I never pay attention to blogs like this but I heard there was a discussion about the schools. I would have given anything to attend Parkside and I wish our schools the best in moving forward and I hope my kids get to be a part of it someday.
That's funny 11:52. What deteriorating school system? What is deteriorating? Have you visited one lately? Talked to anyone? Some school districts are probably getting better some are probably getting worse at any given moment. But where is the local crisis?
I have children, nieces and nephews who are performing very well and aren't saying what you are hearing. Quite the opposite in fact.
But your nephew said it so it must be true. You are right. Screw facts.
9:44 Did you take reading comprehension in school because you have obviously missed the point. As for 9:31, I do have higher education, I don't know why you assume I don't, but it's not like a higher education guarantees success in this country. The point is government makes things artificially expensive while maintaining or decreasing quality. You don't need an advanced education to figure this stuff out. Please, use your advanced education to look into the economics of things before you attempt to insult me.
It doesn't guarantee success, but it helps! The governemnt helps promote expenses by the easy method of student loans. The decreasing quality is debatable. Is higher education == college. In today's world higher education includes advance degree. Experience is the major reason potential employers employ individuals. College points out that you are teachable, and some communication skills. Your solution to eliminate public education is a tad elitist. Who would be able to afford private education without student loans. The answer is those who have the money. Yes, another two class system.
I didn't insult you. I picked apart your argument with facts and reasonably intelligent points, none of which you countered. Don't take it personally.
You don't get to argue with me with "the point is government makes things artificially expensive while maintaining or decreasing quality" without something to back it up. Your ten percent of blogger backers will make you feel good about yourself while you get your ass handed to you in another election.
I have figured "this stuff" out and I will await your brilliant response to anything I said. You like putting your name on goofy concepts which revolve around all government basically being bad or artificially expensive, which is an economic falsehood as well. Does government drive up some costs? Of course. We live in a country of rules and laws and regulations. I am a conservative and I think the government over reaches at times. It's just that the "all government is bad" whackos take away from the concept of good conservationism and any reasonable conversation about the role of government.
Don't drive on our roads, go to our schools, eat the food that passed the health department inspection, be protected by our military, have police and fire protection for your home, a sewer that works every day, water the comes out of your faucet, or a library with books or whatever else. You can live in a country where all government is bad. I'll live in the USA, where only some of the government is bad.
I was referencing all of your young friends you you mentioned who don't have jobs, so my apologies if you are an educated and well-employed young man. From your statement I am also assuming you got a private school education that was far to superior to the pitiful public ones your friends obviously received.
Here is what you clearly don't understand. There are no guarantees for anyone. A college education is a choice a person makes. It is their decision which school to attend and how to ultimately pay for it. I did public school through college, including Peru, LP, IVCC and a state university. Worked my butt off and got through college with little debt and long since paid off. I didn't whine around and make excuses. I sucked it up and did it and my "government, public education" is serving me very well, just as it does for the vast majority of American citizens who take personal responsibility for that education.
Good luck to you buddy. If you want to continue an argument of extremism vs good decent common sense I'm here waiting for you.
9:39 you are a minority if you think a few bloggers represent any significant part of the population.
I agree it was not part of the Constitution, but then neither were free black people or the right to vote for women. This does not mean that our Founding Fathers did not believe in public education EVEN back then. Crazy big government founding fathers...
In 1785, John Adams wrote, "The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves."
Justin is 100% correct regarding college. I have two kids that are college graduates, one has a liberal arts degree and the other one does not. They both graduated from a illinois university. Have been out of college for three years. Both of them had to go to the suburbs/Chicago for jobs. My child with the liberal arts degree works in social services and make approximately $14.00 per hour. My other child works in marketing/ accounting and makes $30,000 plus commission. Both are in college debt to the tune of about $40,000 each. My child who makes about $14.00 a hour would like to get a masters degree, in which would increase salary. Can't afford more debt to obtain a masters. Both my children are actually hard workers and a little depressed over their debt because both are barely making it financially and it will take 15-20 years to pay off their college debt. They were raised by hard working parents, who were themselves barely making it. No financial aid available. Liberal art degrees are worthless I hate to say. This has been all over the news the last
Couple of years.
I have two step-children both with liberal arts dregrees. Worthless. To be brutally honest, both received athletic scholarships which paid for most of college. Both went to college for the extended playing of a sport they liked in HS. Both could have really cared less about getting more of a dregrees then liberal arts degree. They're easy to obtain. A 8th grade C student could get one. Colleges put too much emphasis on athletic scholarships and don't care about the education. Look at alot of college basketball, and football players, a large percentage can't even speak proper English.
12:44. You are obviously another individual with difficult reading comprehension skills. I never said all government is bad, this is yet another fallacy that you have thought up. Government needs to exist to protect life, liberty, and private property. I also never said my friends didn't have jobs, I'm curious where you got that from as well. You make it sound like we would have never advanced as species if government wasn't around to hold our hand. Here is another thing to think of; if I own a college, and I know I can teach you for $5,000, but I know the government will back you for $10,000, what do you think will happen to the cost of your education? You see, if there were no subsidies colleges would be forced to cut costs.
they should do away with college sports all together.
Government exists for far more than that. You list these most basic three reasons for any government to exist, but of course in the good ol' USA the purpose of the government in the preamble is to form a more perfect union; to establish justice; to insure domestic tranquility; to provide for the common defense; to promote the general welfare; and to secure the blessings of liberty.
They should do away with college sports. Students who are there for the right reasons are supporting the colleges sports programs with high tuition costs.
I am sorry a couple of you have kids with liberal arts degrees. That tells me your kids made a bad choice but this is not the government's fault.
There is a distinct and direct correlation between education attainment (measured by college degrees) and household income. It is not even disputed in research. It's just common sense.
Those of you who had kids make poor choices for majors hang in there. Over time it will probably be better in the long run. But I did not allow my kids to choose a major that would not have a practical use.
Justin if you can own a college and you can teach a kids for $5,000 a year, I would like to see that business plan.
Yes our state government "subsidizes" education just like all states do. That has worked very well for our country. Let's put all of the facts out there about the truth regarding taxes and college costs. The only catch is no political slant, just facts. Then let's take a poll and ask the average citizen if we should take the U of I and ISU and NIU and the others private. That will be a good one.
Again, if you ever want to make the slightest difference politically in the world, stop with this kind of stupidity. You will get cheered on by 7 people, but the rest of the world will answer you with the sound of crickets.
We have operated for eons with a reasonable balance between good government and a healthy private sector and both are dependent on the other. Even god business people (I consider myself one) who believe that government should "get out of the way" don't want it to go away. They want less regulations and reasonable taxes, but we need good government as well. and that includes a good education system.
Let's move on and work together to tackle the real problems in the world and stop with the hard core party line talking points.
Before this debate goes on and on about a college degree what is the foremost reason for obtaining one?
Years ago I was told it was to learn about the many facets of life, the arts and humanities etc. and the enjoyment of them.
What do you believe if the prime reason of a collee education?
The first comment of this topic is interesting. Each area could have a independent location but all other cost saving factors could be processed under one umbrella resulting in the savings of big bucks.
Today because of computers many business practices are available that are not looked into.
At tonights city council meeting there is supposed to be a new member appointed to the Design and Review Board. Has this appointment ever been published to find if anyone else was interested? How many members are supposed to be on this board? How many members are on it and who is the new nominee replacing?
There is also a Downtown Redevelopment Board? Who is the present Chairman of this board and when was its last meeting?
Nice job Justin for picking it apart. You're right, as long as the government puts in a "floor" then costs won't come down.
2:57. I was using the $5,000 ARBITRARY number for simplicities sake, I thought you could use it. You seem to have a very difficult time with reading comprehension; I never said I wanted to make a difference politically, in any case, the arguments I present aren't political, they are based from mathematics and economics. The government subsidies are a huge drawback, I don't see how you could support them. You see, in a free market economy, if you are adding value, then you succeed, if you are not, then you fail (which is why I strongly disagreed with the bank bailout). When you have subsidization, nobody knows if what is provided is helping or hindering since the option of failing has been taken off the table.
For your information, I have been "cheered on" by more than 7 people, I make my stand public and sign my name to where you are still "anonymous." As for your last paragraph, as I emphasized before, I don't want government to go away, we need it, you should re read my post at 2:30. I will leave with a question for you, and try not to get distracted; what has the government intervened in that brought up quality while decreasing cost?
Justin - that is just like the farm bill that provides incetives to plant corn in the bottoms where it is almost guaranteed to fail. And the subsidized flood insurance that pays for people to rebuild multiple times in flood prone areas. In both cases, if the market where to prevail and people where allowed to fail, then we we would be better for it. Not meaning any harm to the people of Utica and Marcelles - but they should not be getting any "FEMA" money for the flooding this year. Peru should have never gotten "IKE" Grants for, of all things, a hurrican from years ago. Etc, etc, etc. Waste, waste, waste.
9:39 Education, to the VAST majority , has become a right AND a responsibility. Slowly, the government put more and more laws, subsidies and effort into trying to guarantee all had an equal opportunity for education and to better themselves.
That very concept flies in the face of pure competitive capitalistic ideas, where we allow failure so we can have success. There are safety nets because the wild ravages of pure free market forces have HISTORY behind them. It really IS the governments job to monitor and try to guarantee equality and basic rights for all. Did your parents put the food out on the table and watch the weak ones die while the strong got stronger?
Why don't you pure free market thinkers leave survival of the fittest to the evolutionary biologists?
Education has been considered one of the basics because it is the great equalizer, allowing those with limited means but desire, smarts and will the ability to rise up into the upper classes. It is also the bastion of tolerance and innovation.
It is rationed and religious/ facist in almost every dictatorship in History. If you detest the liberals, the elitists with liberal arts educations, you share that trait with almost every mass murdering ruler in History.
There are many problems with education, and there are few simple answers, for the very subjects needing to be taught to supply competing workers have shifted and become more complex. There is less money going per student than at any time since WWII, and a conservative mandate of No Child left behind that should have been titled, get good test scores or we take away your funding.
There is a HUGE difference 7:48 between treating people equal and making people equal
7:34. I couldn't agree more. Remove the financial safety net and you remove the constant bad decisions.
Is it "no child left behind" or "no child left a dime?" The socialist govt needs to get out of the education system and propping up useless degrees and failing colleges. When the next recession hits (no doubtedly caused by our 17+ trillion in debt) I can guarantee, just like last recession, college kids will be in the dust
I think there would be more jobs if the baby boomers where forced to retire at 65 (unless they are self employed). These people should not be holding onto jobs that younger people need.
Thankfully this blog post is over. What starts out as a discussion about education funding ends up with words about our "socialist government" needing to get out of the education system.
So much for any chance at an intellectual discussion when the crazies take over. Unbelievable.
Yes 12:29. Maybe you should tune into more intelligent things, like FaceBook. You have also added nothing to intelligently counter anything anyone said here.
speaking of education , here is a link that came out today that will put things in perspective! http://fountainheadnation.org/school-revolution/ I'd like to hear some points that argue its validity
10:32 There were very few points made in the article. To those who already view govt funded and mandated education as some evil socialists plot, it is fodder. It fails to mention WHY the federal government stepped in to try and equalize educational opportunity across the entire country. It fails to explain that no child left behind was a conservative brainchild to try and punish districts by withholding dollars. It does not inflation adjust the per student figure, a figure in error btw, but most importantly doe NOT chart the wild disparity in class size and per student funding all across the country, the WORST such distribution of ANY industrialized nation.
The low income areas and scores vs the high income areas good scores has been the ONE constant over then big picture analysis for many decades. Exceptions and religious schools are presented as the rule by every whack job school revolutionary out there. They are always thinly veiled attempts to go back to the let us folk educate our kids and keep the govt out. Lets hear you say WHY the govt got in it in the first place.
Taking away your safety nets that you think makes us all equal (which by the way is stated in the constitution and by every major religion), should really step back away from public education.
Stop focusing so hard at making all the schools need to meet some arbitrary standard and look closely at why the funding disparity is so wide across our allegedly socialist nation. If any God given right called for a more equitable opportunity for every child, it should be education.
8:06 PM
It sounds like your would be in favor of Common Core also. Someone just mentioned this to me a few days ago and I have not had much time to read up on it. Sounds like more government control.
Lois
I wonder how you got the sound of what I would favor out of my blog. I am much more in favor of facing the core inequities in funding and class sizes. The roots of keeping rich kids in nice schools and poor kids in bad schools, as well as segregating based on color or academic score , run very deep.
Many of the folks who just want to go back to the good old days went to school when there was a much larger middle class, which has the effect of evening neighborhoods and property values in an area. But the phenomenon of the vanishing middle class and wealth concentration ( which magically seems to be happening in the horrible socialist liberal country Ron Paul decries)
Is having a polarizing effect.
Common Core is more a measurement tool, with far reaching teeth. To make all schools have kids meet basic standards at each grade level in core subjects like math reading science. The standards based reports are more like pass fail, although you can still level using traditional percentage grades. Think of it as D or better I guess.
I am not a big fan of it, nor am I a fan of no child left behind. I am a fan of curriculum development specialists, computer based standardized curriculum, better teacher wages and working conditions, uniform school funding, local school board choices in curriculum to meet common core standards. I also support a voucher system for private schools that accept a minimum 30 per cent low income scholarship students using the local public school tuition rates.
I am not a fan of excessive sports spending during academic crisis. I support zero tolerance for guns in or around schools.
There you go. Now you don't have to guess what I sound like I would favor on some issues. And no I am not a teacher, nor administrator.
If you want to improve the test scores in our local area High Schools, start by charting the vanishing middle class right here over the past twenty years. Look at the class sizes in the feeder elementary schools and their test scores. Look at the tax bases , average income levels, and spending per student. Measure how many elementary kids were exposed to parents who smoke (yes it's a real indicator). You feed poorly equipped 8th graders into overcrowded, underfunded, BD filled and sports centered High Schools, don't expect ACT scores through the roof.
Then , of course point out the exceptions and say see, this school did just fine with a ball of yarn and some good dedicated teachers... And they didn't need any government intervention. That gets you a free Ron Paul sticker.
I am with Justin and many who say the govt is doing it wrong, but I believe it is because the politicians are just dancing around the fundamental funding issues. Standards are easy to promulgate. Funding is a real b*tch.
9:38 PM
Thank you for your excellent well thought out post which I can assure you I will spend some time going back over it again and again but not tonight.
The problem is generally politicians that do the dancing don't know what they are dancing about but sure know how to dance. They all spend their time seeking re election and don't spend enough time studying the issues and how to solve them.
806; the government got in because they want to equalize children, rather than treat them as equal people. It's obvious that some students are better than others at some things, but our education system would rather bring everyone to an equal level rather than let the brightest students flower in their field. How does it make any sense that instead of taking four years of high school, you can drop out and within a week have your GED? I'll leave with another interesting fact: according to the department of education, education spending has increased by roughly 600% since the 1980's, yet when you look at the average SAT scores, they have essentially been flat. WHERE IS OUR MONEY GOING BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOING TO THE CHILDREN!!
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